Lowrie

Siggi_Hartmeyer · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:04 am Post subject:

Has anybody any evidence, that Lowries material is meanwhile artificial propagated? Until the late 90s most if not all of his seeds were collected in the wild (there is i.e. no other way to have such a seed-list) and the tubers and even living plants were dug out. I thought that not artificial propagated material should not be advertised at this forum, isn't it?
_________________
Kind regards and good growing
Siegfried R.H. Hartmeyer
www.hartmeyer.de
s.hartmeyer@t-online.de

Sean Spence · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:20 am Post subject:

There is no proof either way. I have however seen photos of his extensive collection of tuberous Drosera. I doubt whether there is anyone here that will be able to verify that plants are dug from the wild. I have no way of knowing whether or not that is the case, does anybody else here? If it did/does happen, who has the proof? Do you?

I believe that you were happy to accept this until you had a falling out during trip with him in WA?
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"Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

Grow List- updated 28.12.05

Siggi_Hartmeyer · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:

Dear Sean, please do not get me wrong, but this sentence insinuates that I accepted poaching until our 1995 CP-trip with Lowrie. I guess you have no bad intention when you post this sentence so easily, however, you are absolutely wrong with this point of view because my activities for nature conservancy and against habitat destruction started much earlier.

Irmgard and I collect CP since 1977 and our first Dionaea and Sarracenias came from catalogue shopping and those days I simply did not realise that we received wild collected plants. But even in the early 1980s we visited the CP nursery of Thomas Carow in Germany and learned a lot about the endangered CP habitats. I was impressed that the company Carow&Wrono sold only artificial propagated plants and developed the first tissue culture based production for Dionaea despite that was certainly more expensive than the selling of dug out plants done by their competitors.

That experience was important to me. I joined the German CPS (GFP) and a little later the ICPS to support the growing of CP in accordance with the laws of nature conservancy. 1986 I was one of the first of very few persons in Germany who invited the responsible authorities (Regierungspraesidium at the town of Freiburg) to register our CP collection. An inspection took place only some days later and I showed all my bills (from supermarkets and catalogue-orders), phytosanitary certificates, CITES forms and last but not least my (indeed small but nicely) plant propagation by seeds, cuttings etc.. Only some weeks later I was one of very few persons in Europe who had an official registered CP collection with controlled propagation of protected plants. So from that time on I was permitted to post i.e Nepenthes INCLUDING CITES AND PHYTOSANITARY CERTFICATE to world wide destinations.

In addition my wife Irmgard and I decided 1988 to use our second hobby, the filming of our world-wide travelling (starting 1976) for the documentation of natural CP sites and the introduction of persons whos names are well known for CP-enthusiasts. For all following CP movies our motto was: TAKE ONLY PICTURES, LEAVE ONLY FOOT STEPS!

Since 1989 we visited many CP sites world-wide mostly with the help of diverse guides which we contacted in advance for the filming, but NOBODY EVER (in Australia: Trevor Hannam, Kirstie Wulf, Greg Bourke, Allen Lowrie, Wolfgang Klein and others) has seen us taking any plants, because WE TOOK THEM ONLY ON FILM!

Somewhen around 1988 I learned about an Australian from Perth who provided an unbelievable amount of Droseras in his catalogue and I was told that delivery from Australia was including phytosanitary certificate. That last point was indeed important for me and I placed my first order for tuberous Drosera and pygmy gemmae, which arrived 1989 February 2 with phytosanitary certficate No. 180027, signed by the officer O. Smith (code 6151). The size of tubers (some must have been many years old, as I know now) caused Irmgard and me to call Lowrie by phone and to arrange a meeting on our first Australia tour including an interview and the filming of some field trips.

Sean Spence · Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:10 am Post subject:

The reason why I posted my comment was not to insinuate that you legitimise the collection of plants for sale. If that is the way it was portrayed, I apologize for that. It seems clear to me though that much of the anomosity geared towards Mr. Lowrie is due to the occurences during your trip with him to the Kimberley region. That may not be the case and might not be the major reason for your disdain, but that is the way it appears to me.

You are well respected in the CP community and have a limitless amount of expertise that could be provided to CP growers in general. I have noticed however, that virtually the only times we hear from you (perhaps with exception to announce the snap-tentacled Drosera or advertise your DVDs) is to provide a snide comment directed at Allen Lowrie. You have not always done this directly, but from your comments (ie- the man in WA) it is always obvious who you are referring to. In my eyes (not that it would really matter to yourself) you lower yourself when the majority of your posts are negative ones such as these.

My comment has been successful in the fact that it has urged you to let the CP community become aware of your version of the entire story. I am glad you have finally become more open with the information rather than speak in riddles as you had previously done. My thoughts were that if you had something to say that you should come out and say it. Thankyou for putting it all out on the table.

It is now up to collectors to make their own minds up.

Sean.
_________________
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

Grow List- updated 28.12.05

Siggi_Hartmeyer · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:37 am Post subject:

Dear Sean, yes I understood the sentence as an accusation to tolerate poaching, thank you for your clearing reply. I fully accept your apology and beg your pardon if my formulations hit you personally.

All above reported facts are well known for many CP-enthusiasts - not only in Germany – since a decade!! During this time they also noticed well my fight against ordering wild collected plants, especially Australian tubers. About five years ago I organised for that purpose even a group order from Greg Bourke (Sydney) for GFP members. 2001 we visited his property and filmed his greenhouse, where he made - for some years - experiments with different soils to cultivate and propagate tuberous Drosera.
Some persons ment, that the number of species is very restricted and the tubers are smaller than from Lowrie. Also the number of tubers per species was limited for everyone. OK, but they were certainly artificial propagated, so everybody had a good conscious.

So please never say that my activities against poaching are only a faked reason. For about a decade I did not use the name Lowrie and he called me maybe “aff. indica”. He even “forgot” to mention that all flights for him and Pauline have been payed by Irmgard and me, when he published that tour as “Belly Botany in the Kimberleys” 1995 in the ACPS journal. Strange enough, soon after that I (as an ACPS member those days) received without any comment no more journals despite I payed my annual fees …

However, the reason for me to put this on the table now, is not that very old story (why should I wait 12 years?) but a topic rumour/fact(?) which should be cleared rapidly: because the next ICPS conference takes place in Australia.

Sean, sorry that I had not the time to post more articles on this forum, however, absolutely correct is your observation that I was frequently participating in threads where I meet persons with contact to Lowrie. Yes, my sometimes provoking (but as I mean always fact based contribution) had a clear goal: fishing for more information. I was only waiting to be accused for poaching, and the last sentence of your reply, Sean, was - obviously coincidentally - fitting.

The reason for my recent “snide comments” is one sentence of a very serious ICPS member (he asked me to keep his name out of this discussion, what I respect):

Siggi, due to a personal conversation with Lowrie, I feel responsible to give you a warning. He said if you travel to Australia again you will have serious trouble at the border as you (and Irmgard ?) are accused of poaching on your last tour.

A sentence putting really all facts upside down. This can only be based on a crude misunderstanding or even worse: defame. Astoninglishy at a recent CP event a GFP member mentioned a similar sentence:

Is it true or a rumour that you and Irmgard are now also blacklisted by “the man from Perth”, like Paul Debbert and maybe others?

Not enough, after the announcement that the next ICPS conference takes place in Australia, even Jan Schlauer (certainly no poacher!!) called on me, asking if I have maybe any serious information concerning rumours on that mysterious blacklist, because if it exists, it would be very nasty to prepare everything for conference and tours, not knowing that one will either be sent back, or even detained – especially bad if you are travelling from Europe where you receive no information about an accusation in advance. And who is that guy that he – if that is true - produces blacklists for the authorities !!??

Therefore I take this reason to demand a fast clarification by Mr. Lowrie, who’s talking or acting caused a situation which I consider as a kind of psycho-terror. The bookings for the ICPS conference need to be made in time! Taking the official way can only mean, that we engage an appropriate lawyer in Down Under - experienced in nature conservancy and CITES laws – to clear all details with a trial. He will receive ALL papers that we meanwhile collected. Irmgard and I emphasize that we would prefer a peaceful solution, why not moderated by a neutral person. Otherwise, during a trial under the eyes of the world, we will defend our reputation certainly within the frame of laws, but “with a full metal jacket” and my former posting in this thread proofs that this is absolutely serious. Nobody fools us twice!
_________________
Kind regards and good growing
Siegfried R.H. Hartmeyer
www.hartmeyer.de
s.hartmeyer@t-online.de